Interview of
Senator Asif Ali Zardari
Khaleej Times

15 Mar. 2005 KHALEEJ TIMES EXCLUSIVE`By Mohammad Abdul Qudoos`PAKISTAN Peoples Party

(PPP) and Pakistan Muslim League (N) will cooperate in the forthcoming polls to local bodies in Pakistan next month, Asif Ali Zardari, husband of PPP chairperson Benazir Bhutto, PPP leader, and former senator and minister, said in an exclusive interview with Khaleej Times in Dubai.

"Being members of the Alliance for the Restoration of Democracy (ARD), we will contest the elections together," he said.

Mr Zardari has no intentions of taking over the party leadership from Benazir and is content to act as a pointsman and implement her decisions. He also said he was more than willing to work under Makhdoom Amin Fahim.

The PPP, he pointed, was not taking up issues as forcefully as it should in some cases in view of the present international situation.

He revealed that the PPP, should it return to power, would reduce the government's term from five to three years.

On cases filed against him, Mr Zardari was confident that he would win all of them in the courts of law. He said the PPP wanted to establish a Truth Commission which would be unlike the National Accountability Bureau.

Mr Zardari, while in Dubai to meet his family, is also undergoing Ayurvedic treatment for deteriorating muscles. The years spent in jail cramped the use of his muscles, but he has come out a calmer person.

He is now collecting material to write a book which, he says, will be an insight into Third World politicsa and how humans are capable of becoming inhuman.` The interview coordinated by Javed Malik, Director of Desert Rose Hotel Apartments, Dubai.` Interview with Asif Ali Zardari, husband of PPP Chairperson Benazir Bhutto, PPP leader, former Senator and Cabinet Minister.

POLITICS

Question: Is your return to Pakistan on April 16 confirmed? What are the arrangements being made to welcome you back in Lahore? Are there any objections by the government to your leading a rally there?

Answer: April 16 is a definite date for my return. It coincides with the date when Benazir Bhutto landed in Lahore (in 1986 during Gen Zia-ul-Haq's rule). The party is busy making arrangements for my return. Chaudhary Shujaat has gone on record saying that they do not want me to organise rallies. I think rallies are being permitted and people have been taking them out, including Ch Shujaat himself, MMA and fundamentalist parties. When there were no objections to those rallies, why should they object to my rally? I am going there with clear intentions. We shall prove to the world what PPP is and what our strengths are.

Question: Benazir Bhutto has indicated that she will hand over the party leadership to you on your return to Pakistan in April. What are your priorities and plans?

Answer: I think this has been misconstrued. There is only one leader in the PPP and that is Benazir. I am a good aide and I can also be a good pointsman. I intend to go to Pakistan, become a pointsman and implement her instructions. But we are not aspiring to take over the leadership from her although people are trying to give the issue a twist. People accept leadership in a democratic party voluntarily.

Nobody is forcing anyone to listen to her or to be with her. She may give you responsibilities and delegate authority to galvanise the party and to look after workers' affairs. To take over leadership from her, one must first be deserving and then comes desire. I do not match up to that merit. I don't even intend to over Makhdoom Amin Fahim's position. He is doing exactly what the party has asked him to, and I can work under him too.

Question: Are there any special reasons for your decision to spend more time in Lahore?

Answer: I already have a house in Lahore. I have settled down there.

There is a lot of conspiracy going on in Pakistan. There are fault-lines in every country which show up in difficult times. Many fault-lines are now surfacing in Pakistan. Fortunately or unfortunately, the region has always made history, which has an impact on our country. It can be advantageous if proper care is taken. At the moment, the leadership does not have the wisdom or vision to take advantage. Punjab has always been misused, PPP has always been strong in the regin. What we need to do is to galvanise our cadres to save the situation.

Question: What is the progress on the major decisions taken on reforms at the PPP meeting in Dubai over two years ago?

Answer: Those are being implemented in phases. Political parties and democratic forces are always involved in implementing reforms to increase their capabilities. PPP is always looking at itself and improving. It has implemented many of the reforms. There is increased interaction between the four provinces, and local units meet more often now and come up with future programmes. A lot of work has been done in updating the manifesto. Presently, meetings are being organised to look into the issue of local bodies elections. We are organising seminars on democracy and restoration of democracy in Pakistan.

Question: Faction politics is rife in PPP, both in Pakistan and the UAE. No effort has been made to remove differences and bring them together. Some people allege that the differences are deliberately being maintained by the party leadership. PPP workers have also complained that they are not rewarded for their long affiliation and sacrifices when it comes to, for instance, giving party responsibilities and party ticket for elections.

Answer: There are always lobbies in the parties. Look at the Labour Party, the Republican Party. They too have lobbies, but they can't be termed as factions. Even in a family, there are lobbies. It is part human nature. I disagree with the views that workers are not rewarded. Maybe, the few workers you met may not be active in the party. By and large, the workers are here to stay. The proof of the pudding is always in eating. We have managed to survive and succeed even under some very difficult circumstance, for instance, during the elections. It is a different ball game when they kidnap our leaders and make them their candidates.

Question: The government has been in touch with the PPP off and on?

When was the last contact made? What are these talks about? Is there any progress on the PPP demand to hold elections in 2005 instead of 2007 as scheduled? Will the next meeting take place soon?

Answer: That is a million dollar question that I can't answer. But, I will tell you as much as I can. All the political forces are always in dialogue, be it with the present regime or future regimes. We are always engaged in trying to convince them of our point of view, and are hopeful of bringing them around to accepting it. We, in the PPP and Alliance for Restoration of Democracy (ARD), feel that the way the country is being run is not the way it should be. We need a fresh mandate, since the deck of cards is ready to collapse. The PPP manifesto makes a point about the tenure of the government, and we are willing to debate a three-year tenure. We are already working towards that. The government's position is that elections will be held in 2007, while my position is that 2005 should be the election year. I wouldn't like to comment on the timing of the next meeting.

Question: Will PPP cooperate with PML (N) in the forthcoming local bodies election in April?

Answer: We are both members of the ARD and therefore it is very possible that we can go for the local bodies elections together. As members of the ARD, we meet every 15 days. At the moment, it is struggle against the present government for democracy.

Question: What is the progress on the implementation of the agreement reached with PML (N) in Jeddah in February, 2005, for a joint struggle for democracy, supremacy of the Constitution and sovereignty of Parliament?

Answer: There was definitely an understanding where both parties agreed to implement the 1973 Constitution in its original form. It is a pleasant and a very progressive position whereby Muslim League, which has always been uncharitable to us on the 1973 Constitution, has come to accept this, which is a big victory for the PPP. Being part of ARD, we are always in contact.

Question: Is PPP ready to accept President Gen Pervez Musharraf holding the two posts of the President and Army Chief ?

Answer: Our position on this is clear. The ARD does not accept an individual holding two posts. Whether it will be accepted at a later date or not is a decision for the party to take. We are fighting for a full, free democracy. That is our goal.

Question: What is the solution, in your opinion, to the present crisis in Balochistan? Do you agree that the tribal leaders are hindering development of the province to maintain their hold on the people?

Answer: Depends on which type of leaders you are talking about. There are tribal leaders who are in exile and there are others who are in Pakistan. Some tribal leaders are a little aggressive and there are others who are loved. So, you have to differentiate. As far as I am concerned, modern technology and modern thought process should be accepted. There is no tribalism and feudalism. These are institutions used by the establishment for their own gains. Otherwise, there are families in Pakistan who own large tracts of land, but cannot politically come out victorious against lesser known persons. If the elections are free and fair in Balochistan, none of the tribal leaders can win. A lot of things have also gone wrong in Pakistan. A lot of people are deprived of their rights and I think we need to engage them in long-term dialogue and do things the democratic way by giving people their rights rather than taking them away. Some 25-30 years ago, Bhutto Sahib abolished the legal structure of Sardars. But it is still in vogue in certain places with the help of the establishment which I am opposed to. We do not believe in tribalism.

The law of the land should be implemented in all areas. There should be judges and courts in all the tribal areas. Justice should be rendered within the framework of the Constitution of Pakistan and decisions should not be taken under tribal Jirgas. PPP is very clear on that.

Question: Zulfikar Ali Bhutto had successfully abolished the hold of capitalists and give due rights to the labour. Do you think that to complement this policy of empowering people, it is also necessary to abolish the hold of feudal landlords to give farmers their due rights?

Answer: The feudal system is used by the establishment for its own political gains. There is no feudal system otherwise. All these so called big feudals are people siting in the government, whether they are Chaudharys, Sardars or Waderas. They are a bunch of people who got together and the PPP struggle is against them. The PPP is opposed to their kind of thinking, and therefore people are with us.

Feudalism has already been abolished. In the olden days, feudal lords could even convict you. Unfortunately, these are educated ignorants.

Yes, there is a lot of misuse. Let us see how they react to PPP in the government. There would be no private jails when PPP comes to power.

Question: Is it right for the Opposition to take to the streets to press for its demands? Or do you think an appropriate policy is to continue with the struggle from Parliament and other such fora?

Answer: There should be a bit of both. We are not completely against street agitations. At the moment, the party has not called for it. We are engaging everybody in Parliament and that is a very effective place to agitate. Street agitations are the last resort.

Question : You had said at a recent reception that the PPP had decided to allow the Generals to rule so that people can see for themselves who can rule and who can't. Would you like to explain?

Answer: Sometimes when you are standing still, you step aside a little for the wind to pass by. Countries are considered families of the world and there is a lot of upheaval nowadays in the family.

There is a lot of thought process going on. A lot has happened in the world, and 9/11 has changed the world totally. Therefore, maybe we are not taking up issues as forcefully as we would like to in some cases. We are politicians who intend to be there after the turmoil is seen through.

Question: Are you in favour of giving voting rights to overseas Pakistanis?

Answer: Of course, definitely. We could not do it when we were in power. We did not have enough time. There are a lot of things we intend to do in the future.

LEGAL BATTLE Question: You are facing a long list of corruption, criminal and corporate cases in Pakistan. Are there any moves to withdraw these cases which you say are politically motivated?

Answer: The best part of truth is that you can't hide such things for long. The day I went to prison and our government was illegally dismissed in 1996 was our weakest time politically. My brother-in-law had just been assassinated. The Opposition and the establishment struck at us. Since then, we have proved that this is all politics through our actions, which is good for history and posterity because I feel that in today's climate, the software which is becoming very important is recorded history. If nothing else, the coming generations will learn from it. Today, there is nobody in our part of the world who has an iota of doubt in mind that these were false cases.

As far as the West is concerned, in their minds and in their so called strength in morality and institutions viz-a-viz judiciary and others, they can't perceive a situation where people can stage-manage holocaust. They feel that if there is smoke, there has to be fire.

At the moment, in our part of the world, it is all clean and everybody has come to the conclusion that they were politically-motivated cases. We are trying to project this face of the coin around the world. The cases against us have been thoroughly doctored. Otherwise, there is no case that has been going on for eight years. This is because of lack of evidence in those cases. Yes, the world is supporting the present establishment and therefore everybody is being accommodative towards them. But, we are confident of winning the cases.

There were 21 cases against me. I have won 10 of them from prison. In nine of these cases, I was not sentenced. In the last one (Pakistan Steel Mills reference), I was sentenced (by an accountability court), but I won the case at the (Lahore) High Court. To my knowledge, the government has not gone in appeal. So that settles the issue. I intend to win the other cases as well. I am making judicial history, because when I am fighting these cases, I am also making new case laws. If a well-known person like me can be incarcerated for eight years, innocent people can always quote my example while seeking justice. I am fighting for the cause of humanity.

Question: Do you plan to file cases, or take action if possible, against all those responsible for keeping you in prison, torturing you and dragging the cases against you for several years without conviction? What is the action taken by the government in response to your complaint against the five people who tortured you in Karachi?

Answer: Maybe not against all of them, but a few. One should not get overly negative. I do not believe in doing what others have done to you. I have already forgiven everybody.

At the moment, I have already gone to the court against Saifur Rahman (former chief of National Accountability Bureau); Rana Magbool (former Inspector General of Police); Farooq Amin (Deputy Inspector General of Police in Karachi), who are in fact responsible for torturing me (in prison in 1999). (Two others accused in the case are Saif's brother Mujeebur Rehman and jail superintendent Najaf Mirza).

It took me a year to go to court and get some form of direction and I am moving forward. A case has been registered, but they have not yet been summoned or charged. I do not carry any malice against anybody.

I feel that it should only be done as an example so that it is not repeated.

Regarding filing cases and taking action against others, it is not just me alone who suffered, but a lot of our leaders. It is for us to, at the right time, get together and see who has done what to whom and to the party.

The PPP manifesto has a point on Truth Commission, and that is a better option. We have not debated on this with other parties, but I think there has to be a national consensus on this subject. It will be nothing like the National Accountability Bureau, which is a political tool used by the governments to hold on to power.

Question: Will you be attending court hearings of these cases? When and where is the next hearing?

Answer: Of course, I do attend. But my next hearing is at the end of this month (March), and I don't think I will be able to attend it since I will be in Pakistan only next month. But when in Pakistan, I attend the hearings and even if I am not there in person, my lawyers are present in the court as my representatives.

Question: What is the status of the case pending in the Swiss Court? Will you also attend the proceedings of that case?

Answer: My lawyers represent me in the Swiss Court and I am hopeful of winning there also. At the moment, there is no case. There is only an enquiry, just like a police enquiry, but conducted by a magistrate there. The whole thing is that if a sovereign government comes up with falsified evidence, how do I convince the Swiss magistrate that it is falsified evidence.

FAMILY & PERSONAL Question: What was the effect of eight years of detention on your health? Have you consulted doctors about Spondylitis and other health matters in Dubai? Do you plan to continue the treatment abroad or in Pakistan?

Answer: In prison, incarceration, stress and lack of movement take its toll. A person who can't sit in one place, cannot survive in jail. The biggest constraint in jail is that you can't move. You stay in one place, and meditate or whatever else you do, you live in your space. One has to learn to do that. I managed to survive in prison. I can sit in a chair for hours and that is what I did. Among the unfortunate incidents that took place, I was taken to torture cells, deprived of sleep and made to stand or sit in uncomfortable postures.

That did not help my back and my spine has taken the toll for all the years because I was not allowed movement.

Here (in Dubai), I have consulted a few doctors at the Iranian Hospital. I am also trying Ayurvedic medicine from India for the past few days now. These doctors come every morning. Hopefully, I expect to improve. There has been muscle deterioration in every part of my body. My throat pains if I talk aloud or for a long period. I have a choice between the Ziauddin Hospital in Karachi, the Iranian Hospital in Dubai and the Ayurvedic medicine from India. Somewhere in between, I will find a suitable medium. It takes a month for all your muscles to respond to Ayurvedic treatment. I am hoping to recover.

I do not plan to be treated in Europe or in the US. I think that the Eastern practice on bones and muscles is the oldest science and we are much more advanced in the East than in the West. Also, I can't travel long distances, not more than 90-minute flights. I had trouble when I travelled to Jeddah on a three-hour flight.